Women in the Bible
"Bradley E. Young" (byoung@spry.com)
Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:03:17 -0800
------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF4DA.7A0DE4B0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Nally [SMTP:tnally@iquest.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 10:26 AM
To: higher-fire@prairienet.org
Subject: RE: Women in the Bible
At 08:49 AM 11/19/97 -0800, Bro Brad Young wrote:
>>I agree. If there is no man to do the job, God can use a woman. If
there is no woman available, He could use a donkey. If there was no =
donkey
available, He could raise up stones. God will use a woman if that is =
the
best option available to Him, but women and men should not be considered
equal insofar as pastoring/preaching/teaching is concerned. If a woman =
is
married, she should be in subjection to her husband. If she is =
unmarried,
and there is no man available to do the job, then I think that it is =
fine
until God raises up a man to do the job.<<
I think that's *generally* correct. However, I don't think that
God would call a female to the ministry and then un-seat her from
her ministry when a male finally responds to the call and is obedient.
I think that at the time that the bible was being scribed, *women*=20
were *property*. And as *property* they really didn't have place or
rights to speak up in an assembly. They were basically an *accessory*
to men. Whether they be wives, girlfriends, concubines, etc..... they
were property and they were told to keep their silence (much like =
*children*
of today as they should behave during church). =20
The role of women in the ministry, IMO, should be increasing. Doesn't
a man that's been ordained and has had hands laid on him for blessings
and guidance, also have his spouse laid hands on as well to further =
enhance
his ministry?
[Brad Young] =20
Are you then saying that "things are different now," we can ignore that =
part of the bible?
(This part:
1 pet 3:5
eph 5:24
etc.
)
How can the man be the head of the woman when the woman is the spiritual =
leader of the man? That is *confusing*.
Face facts.... there are people that *women* can reach with the =
apostolic
pentecostal oneness message that *men* will never ever ever ever reach.
[Brad Young] =20
Sure. Let her teach a bible study.
Whether it's their softness, their delivery, their personality, or =
whatever...
it's absolutely necessary that women be ministers in the church. If =
that
female is a minister and is married, that doesn't usurp the authority =
she
has over her husband (be he a minister or not). He still might be =
*head*
over her, but she might be accountable for his salvation if she is his
pastor/minister (which I've heard of such a case just like that here in
Indy this last weekend). =20
[Brad Young] =20
He's her head, but she is accountable for his salvation. That doesn't =
grok. God is not the author of confusion...
I think, if anything, the garden variety male
saint that has a pastor/minister as a spouse has to be an extreemly meek
and temporate individual. He's got to realize that it's not for him to
necessarily *pipe* up with the spiritual matters when his spouse is =
around.
[Brad Young] =20
Ahhh... I see now. Your bible must read, "Let the man learn in silence =
with all subjection." It isn't what mine says. =3D)
It's not him that's necessarily on *center stage*. It'd probably be a =
very
humble individual that doesn't mind to see God move through the workings
of his wife. And that being moreso than God moving through his =
ministry.
Also..... where did the term *layman* come about? Wasn't it the Roman
Catholic church (or some kind of organized religion) that elevated the
platform, raised the pulpit, put them up higher to look *down* on the
congregation? The annointed/exhaulted ones remain on the platform, =
while
the laymen remained in their seats. Doesn't scripture say *We are a=20
peculiar people, a royal priesthood." It doesn't say "We are a peculiar
people, Men are a royal priesthood and women are lessor."=20
[Brad Young] =20
The office of priest is not the primary duty of a pastor or evangelist =
or teacher (the behind the pulpit kind). Everyone is a priest, because =
the job of a priest is to offer the sacrifice (and that makes it all of =
our jobs). The preacher is to deliver the Word of God. Are all the =
sheep shepherds? I think not. Are all the trees husbandmen? I think =
not.
Women are not lesser in the office of the priesthood. They have as much =
right to offer up sacrifice as men.
=20
As I see it, the *minister* is no different (other than the call of God)
than you or I. They are flesh and bone, they are a servant. If they =
are
lifted up in prestige, they might as well become an idol to worship. If
God exhaults them because they've humbled themselves and they serve, =
serve,
serve the saints ... that's o.k. I think *recognition* is o.k. But a=20
*favored status* because of the position and/or title is just a little =
out
of whack. My mind goes back to the ministers that have held such a =
status
like Swaggert and Bakker. Don't think that oneness pentecostals don't =
have=20
the same *favored status* aimed at their giants as well. It happens. =
And
they've probably not fallen because there's not been an investigative=20
newsteam trying to uncover something.
[Brad Young] =20
I would agree that some lift up men too high; I don't see this as the =
norm (your assurances aside). I have some specific preachers that I =
would go out of my way to hear, but I don't feel that that is idolatry. =
I just like their preaching.
<snipped a bunch of IRS stuff>=20
------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF4DA.7A0DE4B0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF4DA.7A0DE4B0--