Usurping/a study of ITim.2 (ladies, please read)

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PLEASE, PAGE DOWN SOME BEFORE DELETING!!!
Tone of this post:  Matter of fact.  Small amounts of scattered sarcasm. 
Absolutely no hatefulness or spite.   Apology for length (~140 lines in
original)
Bro. Steve wrote:     
>>>
The NT talks about female
prophets, but never does say that they spoke over a group of men and
usurped
authority over them, or that that was part of God's plan.
<<<
Please also note, Bro. Steve, that nowhere does it say it was most
definitely NOT part of God's plan.  Keep in mind...John 14:12 "Verily,
verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall
he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my
Father."  Does that not include teaching/preaching?  Jesus was a master
teacher/preacher.  Or are you going to argue that since "he" is used, Jesus
was only referring to men?  I don't think you'll find much to back that up.

To the rest of us:
OK, this whole line of argument is getting more and more unreliable to me,
and here's why.  And quite frankly, the whole topic is based upon a
misinterpretation of I Tim. 2:11 and 12 by Bros. Steve and Brad.  Ladies,
please pay special attention to my talk on verse 12 below, it may just
prove enlightening.

PLEASE forgive the length of this post, but it was necessary to establish
the total context of the verses in question on this "usurping" issue.

A general breakdown of I Timothy 2 (the whole 15 verses--skip to ones that
interest you if you like).  Please note first off that *every* time you see
the word "men" (except verse 8, which is from the root word of all the
other "men"s), it is always the same word: #444 "anthropos"--man-faced,
i.e. a human being:--certain, man.
The root is #435 "aner"--a prim. word; a man (prop. as an individual
male):--fellow, man, sir
(For "man" #444 is used in verse 5, and #435 is used in verse 12.)

1,2)  I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and
for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peacable life
in all godliness and honesty.

*It is safe to assume that "men" here is referring to "human being" due to
the context of the verses.  BUT since "kings" and "authority" are also
mentioned in the same breath, Paul might just be referring to males.  Hmmm.

3,4) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who
will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth.

*Again, the use of "all" with "men" leads one toward the "human being" side
of the translation.  Oh, if only 1611 translaters believed in Political
Correctness.....

5, 6) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due
time.

*Self explanatory.

7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth
in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

*Ok, the Words of Jesus confirm this from Acts 9.

8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands,
without wrath and doubting.

*recall that "men" here is #435, the specifically "male" word.  I also
looked up "will" as it is used here.  It means to "be willing" or "intend"
or "have a mind to"  (# 1014).  Using popular logic, it appears then, that
Paul is NOT willing to see women (non males, to be sure) lift their hands
(after all, it doesn't *say* that).  (Was it considered brash and immodest
then?  Who knows, but I know I see a lot of Apostolic/UPC women lift their
hands in prayer today...)  What Paul has in mind for women is found in
verse 9.

9, 10) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel,
with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or
pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness)
with good works.

*"shamefacedness"--#127--aidos--(through the idea of downcast eyes);
bashfulness (toward men); awe (toward God)--reverence, shamefacedness.  It
seems it is improper for women to look boldly at men (a sexual overtone in
Paul's day).  Besides, just how much did that new Sunday suit cost???(I'm
being facicious.)
To Paul, as men profess godliness by lifting hands, women profess godliness
by good works (as opposed to indiscreet appearances as the women of the
times must have looked for Paul to write this).

11) Let the woman learn silence with all subjection.

*"silence" (same as found in verse 12)--#2271--hesuchia--stillness, i.e.
distance from bustle or language:--quietness, silence.  This form is the
feminine of the word "hesuchios"--keeping one's seat, i.e. (by impl.) still
(undisturbed, undisturbing):--peacable, quiet.  I don't know about you, but
I sure don't get "absolutely without speaking" out of that one.  It simply
means not to be a participant in, or the cause of a "ruckus" (as we in the
midwest say).

12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,
but to be in silence.

*"usurp"--#831--authenteo--(from #846--"autos"--self, of the self + obsol.
"hentes"--a worker)--to act of oneself, i.e. (fig) to dominate:--usurp
authority over.
Hmmmmmmmmm.   It appears that the actual word means to take over something
of *your own* volition, not with *permission*.  It does not by any stretch
imply that the authority will NEVER be given, only that it should not be
presumed.  Therefore, if the authority HAS been given to a woman (i.e. she
was called of God), then she is NOT USURPING, she has every RIGHT to that
authority which she has been given.  Again, "silence" was discussed in
verse 11.  NOWHERE is the word "church" present in this chapter, let alone
this verse.  This chapter is about godly behavior IN GENERAL.  

So, this means (if you take Bros. Steve and Brad's view of the verse) no
godly woman will be an Office manager (unless the office is all women); she
will never be a manager of any kind really, you always run the risk of
having authority over men; she will never be a College professor (unless it
is at a girl's school, no chance for adult males to be in the
classroom)--high school cuts it close; no godly woman will own her own
business (unless of course, all of her employees are women--which then runs
into issues with the 14th amendment, not to mention several other equal
rights statutes); no godly woman will ever be president of the PTA (or hold
any other office for that matter--might be some guys as members of the
group); and she certainly would never ever be a pastor, after all, she may
just turn out to be another Eve (see below), and just like a woman, lead
the men to distruction!  Give me a small break, guys, surely you see how
out of context your whole argument is.

13, 14) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

*A careful reading of Genesis 3:6 shows that Adam was *with* Eve when this
whole conversation with the serpent took place.  She did not "teach" Adam
anything about the fruit, she simply gave it to him.  If anything, Adam
should not have eaten it, but instead kicked that snake from here to
who-knows-where, but he ate the fruit of his own free will.  Paul is just
reinforcing the powerful influence women can have over men, and how it
*can* (but not necessarily) be used of Satan.  BTW, Eve didn't have the
Holy Ghost (couldn't have, really).  Women with the Holy Ghost should have
just as much truth as men with the Holy Ghost.  And Satan can use men and
an attitude of assuredness (however false) to deceive women just as easily.

15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in
faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

*"saved"--#4982--sozo--to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or
fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.  And "yes"
folks, it is exactly the same word used in the sermon in Acts 2 (verses
21,40, and 47).  Great news girls, we get saved when we have kids!  This is
our plan of salvation!  

Let's take a reality check.  

We don't take verse 15 (saved by procreation) or verse 8 (only men lift
hands)or 9 (downcast eyes bit) or 11 (silence = absence of speaking--not
the Greek meaning) in such a literal manner, why take verse 12 without the
proper examination either?
Just because someone in 1611 decided to choose a particular word does not
mean that is the end of the story.  More often than not, the original
language's intent speaks volumes.


(Having finally "had it" with misguided and poor use of this scripture (v.
12).)
Anneliese