Subjection was RE: Usurping/a study of ITim.2 (ladies, please read)
"Bradley E. Young" (byoung@spry.com)
Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:42:01 -0800
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I'll go ahead and give a disclaimer:
To quote one of the speakers at PSR (I think it was Bro McMullen) I'm =
not real good at beating around the bush. Some things were said about =
my "interpretation" of the scriptures, and I answer them. It might seem =
a little, um, to the point. =3D)
-----Original Message-----
From: caryle clear [SMTP:cpcj@sprynet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 8:56 AM
To: Higher-fire
Subject: Usurping/a study of ITim.2 (ladies, please read)
PLEASE, PAGE DOWN SOME BEFORE DELETING!!!
<snip>
To the rest of us:
OK, this whole line of argument is getting more and more unreliable to =
me,
and here's why. And quite frankly, the whole topic is based upon a
misinterpretation of I Tim. 2:11 and 12 by Bros. Steve and Brad. =
Ladies,
please pay special attention to my talk on verse 12 below, it may just
prove enlightening.
[Brad Young] =20
I resent you saying that I misinterpreted the scripture and didn't even =
quote what I had to say. I wasn't talking about *silence*, I was =
talking about ***SUBJECTION***.
Nobody seems to want to address that word. Sub-mission, sure, silence, =
sure. What does *SUBJECTION* mean anyhow? Am I really misinterpreting =
it?
PLEASE forgive the length of this post, but it was necessary to =
establish
the total context of the verses in question on this "usurping" issue.
[Brad Young] =20
Obviously not. You attack my postings without even quoting them (and =
then proceed to put words in my mouth).
<snip> =20
11) Let the woman learn silence with all subjection.
*"silence" (same as found in verse 12)--#2271--hesuchia--stillness, i.e.
distance from bustle or language:--quietness, silence. This form is the
feminine of the word "hesuchios"--keeping one's seat, i.e. (by impl.) =
still
(undisturbed, undisturbing):--peacable, quiet. I don't know about you, =
but
I sure don't get "absolutely without speaking" out of that one. It =
simply
means not to be a participant in, or the cause of a "ruckus" (as we in =
the
midwest say).
[Brad Young] =20
Now that word learn seems to be pretty important. It might just imply =
that there is teaching/preaching going on.
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the =
man,
but to be in silence.
*"usurp"--#831--authenteo--(from #846--"autos"--self, of the self + =
obsol.
"hentes"--a worker)--to act of oneself, i.e. (fig) to dominate:--usurp
authority over.
Hmmmmmmmmm. It appears that the actual word means to take over =
something
of *your own* volition, not with *permission*. It does not by any =
stretch
imply that the authority will NEVER be given, only that it should not be
presumed. Therefore, if the authority HAS been given to a woman (i.e. =
she
was called of God), then she is NOT USURPING, she has every RIGHT to =
that
authority which she has been given. Again, "silence" was discussed in
verse 11. NOWHERE is the word "church" present in this chapter, let =
alone
this verse. This chapter is about godly behavior IN GENERAL. =20
[Brad Young] =20
Now I would agree that a man should not usurp authority either. I fall =
into the "everything in the bible was written on purpose" and "words =
mean things" theological camp. =3D) I wonder why these verses are =
specifically directed at women? I think that it was on purpose. I =
think that there is a specific reason. I don't think that women's =
liberation should have any bearing on our theological discussion.
So, this means (if you take Bros. Steve and Brad's view of the verse) no
godly woman will be an Office manager (unless the office is all women); =
she
will never be a manager of any kind really, you always run the risk of
having authority over men; she will never be a College professor (unless =
it
is at a girl's school, no chance for adult males to be in the
classroom)--high school cuts it close; no godly woman will own her own
business (unless of course, all of her employees are women--which then =
runs
into issues with the 14th amendment, not to mention several other equal
rights statutes); no godly woman will ever be president of the PTA (or =
hold
any other office for that matter--might be some guys as members of the
group); and she certainly would never ever be a pastor, after all, she =
may
just turn out to be another Eve (see below), and just like a woman, lead
the men to distruction! Give me a small break, guys, surely you see how
out of context your whole argument is.
[Brad Young] =20
Speaking of out of context! I specifically narrowed my argument to =
preaching and treaching. I was referring to *spiritual authority* =
(which is what those verses are about). I might suggest that you read =
my postings.
<cut some stuff about Adam and Eve>=20
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue =
in
faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
*"saved"--#4982--sozo--to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or
fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. And =
"yes"
folks, it is exactly the same word used in the sermon in Acts 2 (verses
21,40, and 47). Great news girls, we get saved when we have kids! This =
is
our plan of salvation! =20
[Brad Young] =20
Don't just chop off the part about faith charity and holiness in =
sobriety. You can't have holiness (today) without obeying Acts 2:38-40. =
=20
Let's take a reality check. =20
[Brad Young] =20
Just did.
We don't take verse 15 (saved by procreation) or verse 8 (only men lift
hands)or 9 (downcast eyes bit) or 11 (silence =3D absence of =
speaking--not
the Greek meaning) in such a literal manner, why take verse 12 without =
the
proper examination either?
[Brad Young]
I don't feel that I was overly literal in interpreting 11,12. I didn't =
say that a woman should be in absolute silence. (I didn't say quite a =
few of the things that you accuse me of...) 11,12 is referring to =
*spiritual authority*, and women being in subjection and women, "not =
making a ruckus" to quote you.
Just because someone in 1611 decided to choose a particular word does =
not
mean that is the end of the story. More often than not, the original
language's intent speaks volumes.
[Brad Young] =20
That it may. I also fall into the "God can convey His intent in an =
English translation" theological camp, and don't feel that the =
Greek/Hebrew will disagree with the text (well, at least the KJV, but =
that is another thread entirely) of the English translation.
Brad (still waiting for someone to address subjection =3D)) Young=20
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