Women in the Bible
JoeJarv@aol.com (JoeJarv@aol.com)
Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:01:17 -0500 (EST)
This is my second try. I didn't see the first one come through.
Subj: Re: Women in the Bible
Date: 97-11-21 12:28:25 EST
From: JoeJarv
To: higher-fire@prairienet.org
In a message dated 97-11-21 05:33:27 EST,
byoung@spry.com writes:
>
>
This may seem like I am picking nits, but those verses aren't talking about
sub-missions. They do, however refer to *subjection*.>>
Me:
But, if you read the original Greek, submission in Eph 5:22 Wives, *submit*
yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord, uses the *identical*
Greek word that is translated subjection in 1 Pet 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be
in *subjection* to your own husbands.
You:
Here's What old webster had to say about someone who is subject:
Me:
But, old Webster is unable to distinguish the true meaning of the Greek by
using definitions of the English words only.
Note in 1 Peter the use of
50. The Middle Voice represents the *subject* as *acting* in some way *upon
himself* or concerning himself. Since *English* does *not* have a middle
voice, it is usually *difficult to translate* the middle voice *into
English*:
In Ephesians, the Active voice is used.
1. The Active Voice represents the *action* as being accomplished by the
*subject* of the verb: In Greek it is to be distinguished from the Middle
Voice
In both cases, the definition is:
5293. uJpotavssw hupotássoM uJpotavttw hupotáttoM; fut. hupotáxoM from
hupó (5259), and tássoM (5021), to *place in order*. To *place under in an
orderly fashion*.
(I) Act., to subjugate, place in submission.
(II) Mid. hupotássomai, to subject *oneself*, place oneself in submission.
But, in both cases, the act of subjection (submission) is to be performed
*voluntarily* by the person in subjection.
I personally believe that the confusion arises by looking only at English
definitions that cannot express the differences that exist in the Greek: a
good example is
1 Cor 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into *subjection*: lest that by
any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Note the use of
1. The Active Voice represents the *action* as being accomplished by the
*subject* of the verb: In Greek it is to be distinguished from the Middle
Voice (50) and Passive Voice (60).
Strong's definition of this different Greek word, also translated
*subjection* demonstrates a big difference in their meanings:
1396 doulagogeo (doo-lag-ogue-eh'-o);
to be a *slave-driver*, i.e. to *enslave* (figuratively, subdue):
KJV-- bring into subjection.
So, when we observe a husband trying to *forcibly* bring his wife into
subjection, what he is doing is not in accordance with the scripture.
You:
But here's my real question: I just gave you two verses about wives being
in *subjection* to their husbands. That means "to rule over." Can the
saint man command his preacher wife (in love of course) to obey some
particular holiness standard? Who has *authority* (I'd say who wears the
pants, but I'm afraid of the tangent it would start =)) in the household in
spiritual matters?>>
Me:
See above.
You:
<<I don't seem to understand how the man can follow his wife and still be
her
head.>>
Me:
The scripture also teaches us
Eph 5:21
21 Submitting yourselves *one to another* in the fear of God.
So, we can be subject to a person, who is at the same time , subject to us,
once we lose this notion of "being in charge".
Reading the scripture in its fuller context will reveal the true meaning of
being the *head*. (Husbands, please read verses 23 & 25, and do not dwell on
verse 24 only)
Eph 5:23-25
23 For the husband is the *head* of the wife, *even as Christ* is the head
of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to
their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, *love* your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and
*gave himself* for it;
The idea of being a true *head* is further explained in:
Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they
which are accounted to *rule over* the Gentiles *exercise lordship* over
them; and their great ones *exercise authority* upon them.
43 But *so shall it not be among you*: but whosoever will be great among
you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be *servant* of all.
45 For even the Son of man came *not* to be ministered unto, but to
*minister*, and to *give his life* a ransom for many.
The notion of the head exercising lordship, exercising authority, and ruling
over (even being slave-drivers) seems to be dispelled by the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Jesus is teaching service (selflessness), and giving of
oneself.
You:
<< Do you know what the single thread of commonness that you find in the
psychological profiles of serial killers and mass murderers is?
Domineering Mothers! I fear for the day that we have a woman run church.
Sorry if that offends you.>>
Me:
I would have thought that the common thread would have been multiple murder
victims. But, the above answer reveals the real common thread: refusal to
accept responsibility for their own actions, and claiming that they,
themselves are the true victims (of domineering mothers).
But, men have looked for someone to blame their mistakes and sins on since
the original sin:
Gen 3:11-12
11 ...Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou
shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, *The woman* whom thou gavest to be with me, *she* gave
me of the tree, and I did eat.
I guess there really is nothing new under the sun.
Pastor Joe
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Women in the Bible
Date: 97-11-21 12:28:25 EST
From: JoeJarv
To: higher-fire@prairienet.org
In a message dated 97-11-21 05:33:27 EST,
byoung@spry.com writes:
>
>
This may seem like I am picking nits, but those verses aren't talking about
sub-missions. They do, however refer to *subjection*.>>
Me:
But, if you read the original Greek, submission in Eph 5:22 Wives, *submit*
yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord, uses the *identical*
Greek word that is translated subjection in 1 Pet 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be
in *subjection* to your own husbands.
You:
Here's What old webster had to say about someone who is subject:
Me:
But, old Webster is unable to distinguish the true meaning of the Greek by
using definitions of the English words only.
Note in 1 Peter the use of
50. The Middle Voice represents the *subject* as *acting* in some way *upon
himself* or concerning himself. Since *English* does *not* have a middle
voice, it is usually *difficult to translate* the middle voice *into
English*:
In Ephesians, the Active voice is used.
1. The Active Voice represents the *action* as being accomplished by the
*subject* of the verb: In Greek it is to be distinguished from the Middle
Voice
In both cases, the definition is:
5293. uJpotavssw hupotássoM uJpotavttw hupotáttoM; fut. hupotáxoM from
hupó (5259), and tássoM (5021), to *place in order*. To *place under in an
orderly fashion*.
(I) Act., to subjugate, place in submission.
(II) Mid. hupotássomai, to subject *oneself*, place oneself in submission.
But, in both cases, the act of subjection (submission) is to be performed
*voluntarily* by the person in subjection.
I personally believe that the confusion arises by looking only at English
definitions that cannot express the differences that exist in the Greek: a
good example is
1 Cor 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into *subjection*: lest that by any
means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Note the use of
1. The Active Voice represents the *action* as being accomplished by the
*subject* of the verb: In Greek it is to be distinguished from the Middle
Voice (50) and Passive Voice (60).
Strong's definition of this different Greek word, also translated
*subjection* demonstrates a big difference in their meanings:
1396 doulagogeo (doo-lag-ogue-eh'-o);
to be a *slave-driver*, i.e. to *enslave* (figuratively, subdue):
KJV-- bring into subjection.
So, when we observe a husband trying to *forcibly* bring his wife into
subjection, what he is doing is not in accordance with the scripture.
You:
But here's my real question: I just gave you two verses about wives being
in *subjection* to their husbands. That means "to rule over." Can the
saint man command his preacher wife (in love of course) to obey some
particular holiness standard? Who has *authority* (I'd say who wears the
pants, but I'm afraid of the tangent it would start =)) in the household in
spiritual matters?>>
Me:
See above.
You:
<<I don't seem to understand how the man can follow his wife and still be
her
head.>>
Me:
The scripture also teaches us
Eph 5:21
21 Submitting yourselves *one to another* in the fear of God.
So, we can be subject to a person, who is at the same time , subject to us,
once we lose this notion of "being in charge".
Reading the scripture in its fuller context will reveal the true meaning of
being the *head*. (Husbands, please read verses 23 & 25, and do not dwell on
verse 24 only)
Eph 5:23-25
23 For the husband is the *head* of the wife, *even as Christ* is the head of
the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to
their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, *love* your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and
*gave himself* for it;
The idea of being a true *head* is further explained in:
Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which
are accounted to *rule over* the Gentiles *exercise lordship* over them; and
their great ones *exercise authority* upon them.
43 But *so shall it not be among you*: but whosoever will be great among you,
shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be *servant* of all.
45 For even the Son of man came *not* to be ministered unto, but to
*minister*, and to *give his life* a ransom for many.
The notion of the head exercising lordship, exercising authority, and ruling
over (even being slave-drivers) seems to be dispelled by the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Jesus is teaching service (selflessness), and giving of
oneself.
You:
<< Do you know what the single thread of commonness that you find in the
psychological profiles of serial killers and mass murderers is?
Domineering Mothers! I fear for the day that we have a woman run church.
Sorry if that offends you.>>
Me:
I would have thought that the common thread would have been multiple murder
victims. But, the above answer reveals the real common thread: refusal to
accept responsibility for their own actions, and claiming that they,
themselves are the true victims (of domineering mothers).
But, men have looked for someone to blame their mistakes and sins on since
the original sin:
Gen 3:11-12
11 ...Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou
shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, *The woman* whom thou gavest to be with me, *she* gave
me of the tree, and I did eat.
I guess there really is nothing new under the sun.
Pastor Joe