Ephesus (was Re: Subjection...)

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Bro. Brad wrote:
>>
I have said that God can and use women-but that there is order involved in 
it.  I don't find God ever choosing a woman over a man (when there is a man

willing and able), that's all.
<<

Have you considered the situation at the church at Rome?
Look at Romans 16.  Many people are listed for the Roman church to "salute"
or "greet", but only Phoebe (a deacon of the church at Cenchrea) are they
required to "receive...in the Lord,...and that ye assist her in whatsoever
business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and
of myself also," (v.2).

Here, it appears that there were several willing and able men, but the
woman was acknowledged to have leadership of the Cenchrean church.

>>
me:
All I'm pointing
out is that the Bible does not forbid women in the ministry.  It simply
does not.
You:
 I hope that I never said that women are absolutely forbidden from 
preaching/treaching.  If I did, my apologies.
<<

That clears up a lot of misunderstanding.  I (and others) got the
impression that you thought women who wanted to preach were leftists.:) 
You didn't say it outright, I'm sure, but we wouldn't have responded the
way we did if we had not got that impression.  

I did another study on Ephesians (the church where Timothy was preaching)
and 1Tim.  It appears that there were several very strange doctrines
floating around and rebellion in general against the teachings of the
elders. (The list of them, in 1 Tim 4, is talking about "latter" or
"current" times, as opposed to "former" or "past" times).  Even going so
far as to outlaw the institution of marriage.  (Which Paul redefines in his
letter to the Ephesians.)

Apparently, the women of Ephesus were propogating these doctrines moreso
than the men (much like the Church at Corinth misusing tongues, or the
Church at Galatia being incorrect about the gospel of salvation).  If you
read Ephesians 4 and 5, then 1 Tim. 2, it becomes possible that Paul meant
husbands and wives as well as women and men in general.  

Although it appears that the Ephesian women were either more easily
deceived by the false doctrines that some were teaching, or, they were
(having been deceived) spreading these doctrines and teaching them (hence
the verses on Adam and Eve).  Paul says in verse 5-7, that "some" have
desired to be teachers of the law, but have no idea what the law really is.
 This would include men as well as women.  But the specific wording towards
women in verse 12 means to me that it was they who were trying to undermine
the teachings of the elders, so Paul basically tells them to "shut up and
sit still" so they can *learn*.  If their doctrine was sound (which it was
not), I don't think Paul would have dealt so harshly with them. 

I think it is obvious that Paul himself did not think those words to mean
*all* women should not teach men.  Recall Lydia, Chloe (a Corinthian woman
whose house-church had "tattled" on the Corinthian church), Priscilla (with
Aquilla, her husband--*both* who taught Apollos the gospel more perfectly),
Junia, Phoebe, Euodias and Syntyche (women at Philippi).  Paul praises
these women (and others) for their work for the Lord and their assistance
to him in his ministry (some even doing the same work).  If their doctrine
was sound, Paul does not appear to have a problem with women (or anyone)
preaching.

All I wanted to say was that while Paul does specifically address women in
1Tim, it wasn't meant to be towards *all women everywhere forever*, but to
those women who were being instrumental in spreading false doctrines around
the Church at Ephesus, and those women who had forgotten the role of the
wife in the home.


Anneliese